Roy van Dalm is a journalist writing about creative cities for "Het Financieele Dagblad" (Dutch equivalent of "The Financial Times"), Professor in Networked Creativity at HAN University of Applied Science in Arnhem, Holland, co-author of the book "50 Smart Cities in Europe", which will be published in November 2008 and will contain the profiles of 50 cities, including Łódź, Kraków and Wrocław. For three years, Roy used to work for Richard Florida Creative Group as a lecturer and speaker in Europe.

Is the notion ‘Creative Industries’ common in Holland? Is it used as a brand – a characteristic of creative, innovative business activity or is it rather a slogan systematizing the development of this kind of activity? 

 Creative Industries — (CI’s) is a very popular notion in Holland. To be honest, creative industries are currently treated with priority in Dutch economy, they are also the element contributing to rapid boom of regional / local development programmes based on innovation. There were many debates what creative industries really are and are not. Currently, we decided to use the following three-node division: art and culture, media and entertainment, creative business services (fashion, design, architecture and advertising). Creative industries consist of the notion of manufacturing and distribution within those three branches and they are defined by the fact that they create surplus economic value through experience that they create with the user – surplus value, which is usually based on the value of intellectual property. Therefore, creative industries is a defined sector of economics, whose part is enterpreneurship in culture. 

Which area of activity is a dominant one in creative industries in Holland? And what is the difference between creative industries and other ‘industries’?

I think that I have already answered this question to a large extent but a lot can be said about the features that distinguish creative indutries from the other sectors. Apart from the fact that intellectual property and experience play the main role, creative industries are characterised by different preferences referring to the place of functioning. Well-known American sociologist Jane Jacobs once said that ‘new ideas need old buildings’ and this applies largely to creative industry. Regardless of the fact where creative people work – in Britain, Scandinavia, Holland or Germany – they distinctly prefer post-industrial buildings from 19th century.  Revitalisation of factories and post-industrial areas began in Britain, which is a place of birth of creative industries (you perhaps know that the term was coined by the British), however, the most valuable places for creative people in Holland are former factories or gasworks, e.g. Westergasfabriek in Amsterdam.

In this sense, the city such as Łódź, with textile factories, universities and artists has a huge potential to become the capital of creative industries in Poland. Except for intellectual capital or preferences to post-industrial venues, creative industry can be distiguished by one more feature – the need to integrate the interwoven community, which means the presence of many different people in urban surroundings, with huge choice of bars, restaurants and other meeting places, possiblity of free access to the Internet and the mixture of functions. Thus, work, life, recreation should not be separated in space but mixed. Jane Jacobs noticed that as early as in 1961, however, in many cities still the authorities do not want to see it, and the areas of work and life are still separated. Poland experiences incredible economic boom, many IT firms are created, however, just as creative industries really begin to develop in Polish cities, you will need a completely different attitude towards spatial planning.

How does education influence the development of creative sector. Could you list the most important universities in Holland that teach to work in creative industries?

Taking education into account, the development is mainly influenced by the universities which educate in the areas of arts and media. Apart from that, theoretical knowledge is built and transmitted at several universities in Holland. In some cases these are economic departments, in other cases geographic, sometimes technical or sociological and cultural studies. Manufacturing in cultural industry comes from the cultural and artistic sector, knowledge about legislation is contained in spheres such as economics, administration, economic geography and sociology. Soon, the existing faculties will not be enough. For instance, Finland is well in advance in comparison to other countries. Some years ago the Innovation University was created, which combined the strengths of a few universities in Helsinki: University of Technology, University of Art and Design and School of Economics. This is a really shrewd way of thinking. Innovation will emerge as a combination of existing knowledge, so this is rather synthesis than analysis leading to new but isolated knowledge.

And when can a young man decide to choose a career path in creative industries? Are young people encouraged to make such a choice? I’m aiming at asking if professional development and activity in this particular sector are promoted in Holland?

This is a weakness of Dutch education. Slowly, entrepreneurship begins to be taught at some universities due to the fact that more and more creative people start business activity on their own, establishing small companies. However, teaching enterpreneurship is not a natural thing for many universities connected with art and culture. Professional development and activities in this sector are promoted but the sector of education has never belonged to the first league of innovation so unfortunately it is behind in this aspect. However, each and every university and department needs people who have one foot in university campus but the other foot in the outside world. Students are encouraged very strongly – also by general energy in Holland, which shows that creative industry is the most attractive sector.

Entrepreneurship is among the conditions of the development of creative industries. Is e.g. entrepreneurship in culture taught in Holland?

I said this when I anwered previous question. Yes, it slowly starts happening, but this is not enough, it is not good enough yet.
Who in Holland supports the development of creative industries – the authorities, business support organisations?
The support started from local authorities – the authorities of cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam or Eindhoven who saw the opportunities for their cities in it. It started from the cities’ policy concerning culture, economic policy, and spatial planning. It made a way for state policy in cultural and economic departments. The first business sector which got interested in it was Real Estate. Usually, the creative are the first group commencing rennaisance in city space, which in turn causes the increase in real estate prices. After real estate there were banks. Thus, institutions connected with business support creative industries, but transmitting this support to the level of individual companies, in other words creating the culture of urban reality together with artists and enterpreneurs is a long-term process.  
Do Dutch creative industries have a local character? Or maybe interregional – European, so that Dutch companies from this sector work for clients from the whole Europe?
It largely depends on the type of creative industry we are talking about. Graphic designers, product designers, small-scale architects and small advertising companies work mainly for local clients. Media companies, even the small ones and fashion designers quickly start working for the customers from all over the world.

And what will be the direction in which creative industries will develop? What do you think, what we can expect in 5 – 10 years?

This is a very important question. First of all, the direction depends on where we are going to lead them. The scenarios for the future are theoretical predictions and the future is shaped by our actions. The most important, basic and not asked at all question is: why is creative industry important? The answer is not that we live in the era of design or in the era of the experience economy or that in Maslow’s pyramid we reached the stage in which we are able to enjoy the objects. These are viewpoints coming from the consumerist side of creativity. The most significant term comes from the book of Richard Florida ‘The Rise of the Creative Class’ and this is an economic theory saying that ‘human creativity is the drive gear for economic development in the 21st century’. It means that production of creativity is the main factor. What goes behind it is the fact that creative industry is the embodiment of creativity transformed for economic use.  

If we want more people to participate in benefiting from creative economy, we should invest in the development of all people’s creativity. Above all, it means changing our education systems because our children are not taught how to develop creativity. We also have to change our professions and work to become more creative. If we do not do it, in 10 years time we will live in the societies with huge contrasts in earnings, differences in the access to medical service; unnecessary social situations and tensions will arise in those cities that were imagined as being the most creative.  

Creative economy means more than just economy created by the creative – if it stays like this, it will not make use of our potential in full. Creative industries may play extremely significant role through transforming creativity into the potential useful in the projects which have social and economic importance. No economy in the world can be balanced if it is based on only one sector of  economy – creative industries. Society of equality with equal economic chances, open, tolerant atmosphere, high level of trust and wide use of creativity development will outline the path of progress. In this respect, the path is outlined by Scandinavian countries. Britain, in turn, is the leader in creative industries but increasing social inequality may rebound on it. Holland is the country of greater equality, but it lacks entrepreneurship and it should follow the example of Scandinavia. In Germany currently creative industries become the subject of increased interest. This tendency moves eastwards so Poland is the next.

In a few years you will see educated, young people of the world, returning to Poland and then your cities will have to be creative and attractive from the cultural point of view. Warsaw has become too „business-directed” and it must invest in cultural attractions. In Wrocław they know well what this process is about and they have an admirable vision of cultural and economic policy. Kraków is attractive because of national heritage and innovative IT companies but there is no contact between those two aspects in productive side of creativity. Tricity, in turn, has a potential but IT, the artists and cultural industry are dispersed from Gdynia to Sopot and Gdańsk and local authorities could cooperate more effectively. A great potential is also in Łódź – plenty of artists, post-industrial areas and tolerant atmosphere for work – however, it requires a general vision and political openness as well as cooperation between key partners.  

The city number one in Poland in regard to culture will be probably Wrocław whereas Łódź has all the conditions needed to benefit from the productive side of creativity. The Poles do not need training on passion and entrepreneurship – two most important elements of creative economy – so if you manage to cook a meal from these ingredients in 5-10 years, then splendid future in creative industry will be waiting for Poland.

We would like to thank Mrs. Monika Dzięgielewska-Geitz for help in preparing the material.

Roy van Dalm is a journalist writing about creative cities for "Het Financieele Dagblad" (Dutch equivalent of "The Financial Times"), Professor in Networked Creativity at HAN University of Applied Science in Arnhem, Holland, co-author of the book "50 Smart Cities in Europe", which will be published in November 2008 and will contain the profiles of 50 cities, including Łódź, Kraków and Wrocław. For three years, Roy used to work for Richard Florida Creative Group as a lecturer and speaker in Europe.

Is the notion ‘Creative Industries’ common in Holland? Is it used as a brand – a characteristic of creative, innovative business activity or is it rather a slogan systematizing the development of this kind of activity?

Creative Industries — (CI’s) is a very popular notion in Holland. To be honest, creative industries are currently treated with priority in Dutch economy, they are also the element contributing to rapid boom of regional / local development programmes based on innovation. There were many debates what creative industries really are and are not. Currently, we decided to use the following three-node division: art and culture, media and entertainment, creative business services (fashion, design, architecture and advertising). Creative industries consist of the notion of manufacturing and distribution within those three branches and they are defined by the fact that they create surplus economic value through experience that they create with the user – surplus value, which is usually based on the value of intellectual property. Therefore, creative industries is a defined sector of economics, whose part is enterpreneurship in culture.

Which area of activity is a dominant one in creative industries in Holland? And what is the difference between creative industries and other ‘industries’?

I think that I have already answered this question to a large extent but a lot can be said about the features that distinguish creative indutries from the other sectors. Apart from the fact that intellectual property and experience play the main role, creative industries are characterised by different preferences referring to the place of functioning. Well-known American sociologist Jane Jacobs once said that ‘new ideas need old buildings’ and this applies largely to creative industry. Regardless of the fact where creative people work – in Britain, Scandinavia, Holland or Germany – they distinctly prefer post-industrial buildings from 19th century. Revitalisation of factories and post-industrial areas began in Britain, which is a place of birth of creative industries (you perhaps know that the term was coined by the British), however, the most valuable places for creative people in Holland are former factories or gasworks, e.g. Westergasfabriek in Amsterdam.


In this sense, the city such as Łódź, with textile factories, universities and artists has a huge potential to become the capital of creative industries in Poland. Except for intellectual capital or preferences to post-industrial venues, creative industry can be distiguished by one more feature – the need to integrate the interwoven community, which means the presence of many different people in urban surroundings, with huge choice of bars, restaurants and other meeting places, possiblity of free access to the Internet and the mixture of functions. Thus, work, life, recreation should not be separated in space but mixed. Jane Jacobs noticed that as early as in 1961, however, in many cities still the authorities do not want to see it, and the areas of work and life are still separated. Poland experiences incredible economic boom, many IT firms are created, however, just as creative industries really begin to develop in Polish cities, you will need a completely different attitude towards spatial planning.

How does education influence the development of creative sector. Could you list the most important universities in Holland that teach to work in creative industries?

Taking education into account, the development is mainly influenced by the universities which educate in the areas of arts and media. Apart from that, theoretical knowledge is built and transmitted at several universities in Holland. In some cases these are economic departments, in other cases geographic, sometimes technical or sociological and cultural studies. Manufacturing in cultural industry comes from the cultural and artistic sector, knowledge about legislation is contained in spheres such as economics, administration, economic geography and sociology. Soon, the existing faculties will not be enough. For instance, Finland is well in advance in comparison to other countries. Some years ago the Innovation University was created, which combined the strengths of a few universities in Helsinki: University of Technology, University of Art and Design and School of Economics. This is a really shrewd way of thinking. Innovation will emerge as a combination of existing knowledge, so this is rather synthesis than analysis leading to new but isolated knowledge.

And when can a young man decide to choose a career path in creative industries? Are young people encouraged to make such a choice? I’m aiming at asking if professional development and activity in this particular sector are promoted in Holland?

This is a weakness of Dutch education. Slowly, entrepreneurship begins to be taught at some universities due to the fact that more and more creative people start business activity on their own, establishing small companies. However, teaching enterpreneurship is not a natural thing for many universities connected with art and culture. Professional development and activities in this sector are promoted but the sector of education has never belonged to the first league of innovation so unfortunately it is behind in this aspect. However, each and every university and department needs people who have one foot in university campus but the other foot in the outside world. Students are encouraged very strongly – also by general energy in Holland, which shows that creative industry is the most attractive sector.

Entrepreneurship is among the conditions of the development of creative industries. Is e.g. entrepreneurship in culture taught in Holland?

I said this when I anwered previous question. Yes, it slowly starts happening, but this is not enough, it is not good enough yet.

Who in Holland supports the development of creative industries – the authorities, business support organisations?

The support started from local authorities – the authorities of cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam or Eindhoven who saw the opportunities for their cities in it. It started from the cities’ policy concerning culture, economic policy, and spatial planning. It made a way for state policy in cultural and economic departments. The first business sector which got interested in it was Real Estate. Usually, the creative are the first group commencing rennaisance in city space, which in turn causes the increase in real estate prices. After real estate there were banks. Thus, institutions connected with business support creative industries, but transmitting this support to the level of individual companies, in other words creating the culture of urban reality together with artists and enterpreneurs is a long-term process.

Do Dutch creative industries have a local character? Or maybe interregional – European, so that Dutch companies from this sector work for clients from the whole Europe?

It largely depends on the type of creative industry we are talking about. Graphic designers, product designers, small-scale architects and small advertising companies work mainly for local clients. Media companies, even the small ones and fashion designers quickly start working for the customers from all over the world.

And what will be the direction in which creative industries will develop? What do you think, what we can expect in 5 – 10 years?

This is a very important question. First of all, the direction depends on where we are going to lead them. The scenarios for the future are theoretical predictions and the future is shaped by our actions. The most important, basic and not asked at all question is: why is creative industry important? The answer is not that we live in the era of design or in the era of the experience economy or that in Maslow’s pyramid we reached the stage in which we are able to enjoy the objects. These are viewpoints coming from the consumerist side of creativity. The most significant term comes from the book of Richard Florida ‘The Rise of the Creative Class’ and this is an economic theory saying that ‘human creativity is the drive gear for economic development in the 21st century’. It means that production of creativity is the main factor. What goes behind it is the fact that creative industry is the embodiment of creativity transformed for economic use.

If we want more people to participate in benefiting from creative economy, we should invest in the development of all people’s creativity. Above all, it means changing our education systems because our children are not taught how to develop creativity. We also have to change our professions and work to become more creative. If we do not do it, in 10 years time we will live in the societies with huge contrasts in earnings, differences in the access to medical service; unnecessary social situations and tensions will arise in those cities that were imagined as being the most creative.

Creative economy means more than just economy created by the creative – if it stays like this, it will not make use of our potential in full. Creative industries may play extremely significant role through transforming creativity into the potential useful in the projects which have social and economic importance. No economy in the world can be balanced if it is based on only one sector of economy – creative industries. Society of equality with equal economic chances, open, tolerant atmosphere, high level of trust and wide use of creativity development will outline the path of progress. In this respect, the path is outlined by Scandinavian countries. Britain, in turn, is the leader in creative industries but increasing social inequality may rebound on it. Holland is the country of greater equality, but it lacks entrepreneurship and it should follow the example of Scandinavia. In Germany currently creative industries become the subject of increased interest. This tendency moves eastwards so Poland is the next.

In a few years you will see educated, young people of the world, returning to Poland and then your cities will have to be creative and attractive from the cultural point of view. Warsaw has become too „business-directed” and it must invest in cultural attractions. In Wrocław they know well what this process is about and they have an admirable vision of cultural and economic policy. Kraków is attractive because of national heritage and innovative IT companies but there is no contact between those two aspects in productive side of creativity. Tricity, in turn, has a potential but IT, the artists and cultural industry are dispersed from Gdynia to Sopot and Gdańsk and local authorities could cooperate more effectively. A great potential is also in Łódź – plenty of artists, post-industrial areas and tolerant atmosphere for work – however, it requires a general vision and political openness as well as cooperation between key partners.

The city number one in Poland in regard to culture will be probably Wrocław whereas Łódź has all the conditions needed to benefit from the productive side of creativity. The Poles do not need training on passion and entrepreneurship – two most important elements of creative economy – so if you manage to cook a meal from these ingredients in 5-10 years, then splendid future in creative industry will be waiting for Poland.

We would like to thank Mrs. Monika Dzięgielewska-Geitz for help in preparing the material.